Appotus Dominus

[Teklan]

So we can look back on this a couple years from now...

What do you think should have occurred to call the stimulus a success? What do you consider a failure?

Reason to ask now instead of later is so you can't base your opinion on what already happened. For example, if someone declares "it was a success because our GDP went up" someone else might say "it was inevitable that things would get better anyways, you can't give credit to the stimulus." In that case, what DO you consider a success then?

[Xorne]

A success would of been for the bailout to fail to pass congress, let the economy tank so you can get it back up in 2-3 years maybe a little more instead of the 10+ year depression that is coming.

[dnief]

Teklan you seem to be at a loss as to what is really going in in this country. These videos will catch you up fast if you choose to watch them:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BECD76AC1547796E

The video's are from 1988 but they are EXTREMLY informative.

[Teklan]

It isn't that I am blind to things, Dnief. I know that corporations and people with power in general, take advantage of it and it screws over the little people. That is why I am more for a "socialist" perspective of controlling the gluttony of CEOs that make more money than they could ever spend. It becomes a big cockwave of who makes more money while tons of people live in poverty.

At the same time, you got people such as Mandaar who call Obama a "socialist pig" because of this very reason. If you ask someone against socialism why they are, they are often confusing it for communism. They essentially get types of economies mixed with forms of government. Now I won't pretend to know why Mandaar hates Obama for being "socialist" because he hasn't said why. But he isn't alone in people that hate him for this reason. It really comes off as a misunderstanding of what that means, in my opinion.

Back on topic of the thread: I made this because those that fight against government do not want to see any proof that their theories about corruption etc are wrong. Proof can consist of a rebounding economy, better relations in foreign countries, etc. But really, I could see a couple people here making up conspiracies about anything that goes against what they have said in the past. It is, what you would call, an impossible argument.

[Mandaar]

Teklan you don't get it.

Socialism does 2 things:

1. Doesn't affect the CEOs and rich because they always have loopholes as they fund the campaigns.

2. Screws the people that do all the work and have all the initiative.


There is no system that is so bad that socialism cannot make it worse. Medicine, Social Security, Job Selection, you name it. Embracing socialism is the first step down the great decline.

It doesn't work. You bought all the sound bytes. You bought into the rhetoric. Have fun taking care of your parents. In your 2 room shack.

[Teklan]

[FrogbaitSpiritwalker]

Communism - Government owns everything, everyone is the same.
Gov = Upper class
Citizens = Lower class

Socialism - Gov owns country's resources, citizens own private property. gov tells citizens what they do for a living.
Gov = Middle Class
Citizens = Middle class

Capitalism = Citizens own everything. Everything is private property. Government gives regulations.
Gov/Citizens = can be Lower, Middle, or Upper.

No single economy is a pure capitalist ( Market ) or Communist ( Command ). Every economy the world has is a mixed economy ( minus tribal states that follow the traditional economy ) with them leaning one way or the other. A Mixed economy is a blend, can be argued to be socialist, I forget the reason of how they're different. Or I could be mistake and Mixed = Socialist, someone feel free to correct me. Basically, the reason why the US has been so successful is because we let our citizens get rewarded for showing initiative and improving our lives. The reason why Communism is almost completely eradicated by now, is because people don't work hard or try to improve what they're doing because they don't get anything extra. China is still considered a communist state, but has been leaning towards capitalism recently, thus why their economy is on the rise. US is still Triple the GDP of China. We are still far ahead economically. The only reason why we have declined is because we are switching from being a mainly good producing country to a service producing country. Thus we are not exporting as much and lowering our GDP and what not. I'll be honest with Ron Paul, and it's sure to get me flamed. Just like Ralph Nader, he has the occasional Stroke of Brilliance, but other than that, he is a raving lunatic that utters complete nonsense. Generally I avoid these threads, because I don't like reading pages of political debate and the latest conspiracy theory, but thought I should at least explain the basic concept of the economies so people understand which is which. I don't see how we're going into a depression with all of the safe guards we have against a depression. We are in a recession, which does in fact happen often, it is a phase of the I think it's called the Business Cycle, been awhile - Recovery > Prosperity > Recession > Depression > Recovery -- that one if someone wants to give me the name. Except for the Great Depression, we have never been in a depression. Generally we follow the cycle of Recovery > Prosperity > Recession > Recovery.

As for the Obama thing, Yes, he is a socialist pig, and will probably screw us as much as Jimmy Carter did. Lets just pray we get another Reagan to come fix the shit he'll most likely cause us. Yes, I went for McCain, because unlike Obama, he has a sense of what needs to be done for the economy. Giving a Stimulus plan to inflate the dollar amount and raising taxes doesn't really help. The most simple solution for an almost immediate economical boost is to lower taxes. Lower Taxes = More money for people to spend = more money being spent = more money being circulated through the economy = more tax income generated due to more money being circulated and spent.

Since we are not a self-sufficient economy and produce to the greatest efficiency, one fall of an industry creates a domino effect, that would be why we are in a recession with the housing industry and automobile industries taking a fall. The main reason for the housing industry fall, was because of the bill that made bankers give loans to a certain amount of people that make under X amount of dollars per year but the banks are guaranteed I think it was 80% of the money they invested by the government if the people that took the loans don't pay it back. Those people in turn go and buy houses that they cannot hope to afford, houses that cost $254,000 and these people buying them are making 30,000 / year. Of course they're going to not be able to make those payments. Those people not making those payments just added up and caused the banks to withdraw into their shell.

Now anyways, dead tired atm while I was typing this up, so grammar probably won't be up to par. Going to bed now, Night.

[FrogbaitSpiritwalker]

Hit quote by accident when I meant to hit edit for a quick spelling error fix.

[Xorne]

Interesting post Frogbait, I just want to chip something in. About the business cycles. They aren't supposed to exist. The only reason it's happening is because of the Federal Reserve. They expend and contract the money supply to manipulate the market to create bubble / bust and since they have inside knowledge on what is going to happen they can move ahead of the chump and get liquid at the end of the bubble just before the bust and when everything goes down they can consolidate the assets.

[dnief]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s6b-yYvfp8


State of New Hampshire with Bill HCR 6 is just on one of several States who are drawing a line in the sand against the Federal Government. For any one of 6 very specific reasons, they will secede.


I.
Declaring Involuntary Martial Law over any of the 50 States

II.
Any kind of "domestic Draft" (Obama's Service Corps)
*Obama's Plan for The Draft- MANDATORY SERVICE everyone 18-25
http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=HtDSwyCPEsQ

III.
Any kind of required service of Minors (Youth Brigades)
*"Obama's Nazi Youth Brigade"pt1
http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=yVjcRkeKFsc

IV. Surrendering any power delegated or not delegated to any corporation or foreign government. (UN Millenium Declaration, which Obama supports.

North American Union/SPP agreement.

UN Carbon Taxes)
*CNN-Lou Dobbs- Obama Backing North American Union Agenda - http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=JgGEv-cdoms
**CNN- Obama and UN "Millenium Declaration"- Carbon Taxes - http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=PePbtEABzGk

V. Any act regarding religion; further limitations on freedom of political speech; or further limitations on freedom of the press.
(Fairness Doctrine)

VI.
Any attempt to further restrict the the Right to Bear Arms
(Obama preposed a 500% tax on ammunition in his State and supports a nationwide version.

*CNN- Obama To BAN Guns SPREAD THIS FOLKS, PLZ!
http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=-vKfL2ETnF8

Obama's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel want to put Gun Owners on a political black list that will strip them of their rights.

*Commie Rahm Emanuel to Disarm America:"#1 Issue", Gun Owners are Terrorists
http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=7vp7f1QKYmg

Obama's Attorney General lobbied for the Total Gun Ban in DC, and thought it should go Nationwide.
)

---

Heres the Bill:
http://www. gencourt. state. nh. us/legislation/2009/HCR0006. html

Legislators tell feds to back off
http://www. wnd. com/index. php?fa=PAGE. view&pageId=87987

21 States Claiming Sovereignty: AZ, AL, AK, AR, CA, CO, GA, HI, ID, IN, KS, ME, MI, MO, MT, NH, NV, OK, PA, TX, & WA
http://www. mrstep. com/politics/az-wa-mo-nh-ok-claiming-sovereignty/

[tenor]

Teklan In many cases your comment on this issue is very perceptive. I see what You said as depending on what side you are on You can call it a success. there fore what really is success. My personal view is this stimulous package was opportunity to pass some of the pork barrel project that never would never get thru other wise. True this may increase job to some extent but will the amount of job make any difference? I dont think any one really knows. The so call expert usualy bases his expertise on past performance. We are on new ground where the past cannot predict the future. Only similar analogy could be the depression. Back then People didnt know what was going on or how to fix it. Some proponent say the new deal in the thirties help reduce the devestation of the great deprestion. Others say the new deal did not help the economy at all. I dont know, who does? This stimulous package look pork barrel to me. Time will tell I guess it this stimulous package helps I guess.

[Mandaar]

I'm sorry, but any society based on the reduction of the strong and the carrying of the weak will not survive long-term. YES you take care of those in need. But, you also create a system that gives people a reason to seek out helplessness. You also don't let the goverment run it all. Beuracracy is the WORST POSSIBLE setup to run ANYTHING.

Socialism is filled with fail.

They only caveat I have to this is children under 18. They didn't chose their spot in life. They need to be cared for adequately and I would heartily support a tax that allowed for this care. I'd gladly pay for it. But, the rest is bullshit. Once the government puts itself in position to maintain all those socialist systems, our fate is sealed as just another fading power on the train to mediocrity. We're going that way, so maybe mediocrity is optimistic.


I don't care if this makes me sound cold. Socialism is a bullshit system that doesn't work to the betterment of all as its proponents claim. So the people that aren't making it day to day for whatever reasons will get free health care, probably free food, free clothing, and so forth. All the people making it today, will get less qualified health care, coverage for less than they do now, and significantly less than they make do with because they will need to hand it over for the freeloaders. Your idea of utopia is not mine and I will never share it. I want something better. I want my country out of the hands of a bunch of soft, wussy intellectuals that won't feel a tiny bit of the impact of this when it hits.

Are there people that NEED our help? Yes there are. Will the system be abused horribly as it always is? Yes. I have known people that get welfare and work 2 jobs illegally. And MANY thousands continue to do that. Why? Because ANYTHING that the government runs will be worse than if the private sector runs it. ANYTHING. If that makes you all gooey inside, fine. Don't get any on me.

Socialism doesn't work because the more you put in the hands of a bureaucracy the worse off EVERYONE is on average.



None of this is that important next to the fact that Obama is a lying, incompetent disaster. Maybe we'll get a plan in place to go along with his porkulus bill soon. Maybe something like, "Just print money as fast as you can."

What could possibly go wrong? But, at least every democrat's pet project got taken care of. Those that are scheduled to be done before 2015 anyways. I wanted a new deal. I wanted the democrats to show me they had risen above their big government cesspool. They haven't. I will never ever support a democratic candidate as long as I live. This is the new hope? I sincerely hope you all have contingency plans for when this utopia goes live.

[Teklan]

I don't see republican governors complaining about the bill. It doesn't have to do with party affiliation, it has to do with what makes you look good.
Senators want to politically look good to where they can say someone else is lying - republicans and dems do it to each other....repubs do it to repubs and dems to dems during primaries...
Governors want money to pay their deficit bills regardless of party...

What is this all driven by? To make the US the #1 country? To be better than the rest of the world? I think they go by the quote in Talledega Nights that goes something like "If you're not first, you're last". I don't see anything wrong with settling for 2nd if it means your people are cared for. And if you are pro-corporate where people's lives are dictated 8 hours a day 40 hours a week by some CEO then go ahead. I see how your gaming company is treating you, and you post you'll be on the next day but they play you and make you work longer than they originally told ya. That is the business world. I'm not saying that might not exist in the socialist world, but hell, what if it doesn't? Don't knock it before you try it.

[FrogbaitSpiritwalker]

I wouldn't say never Mandaar, The parties do change. Yes, I voted for McCain, out of the two, he actually had an idea of what to do with the economy. Not sure if Obama will get reelected in 2012 or not, main reason being that whatever he screws up, it will get blamed on the bush administration by the media, and with all the fucking idiots we have that believe every single word the media is saying, will accept that as a fact.

Again, lets just hope for another Reagan to pull us out of this shit hole that Jimmy Carter jr. will put us in.

[Mandaar]

[IoneMonk]

Against all better judgment, at the sound of the starter’s pistol, another special Olympian stumbles out of the blocks to argue on the internet.

Freely throwing about labels and making conclusory assertions that are not based on facts and/or logic is merely rhetoric. Sometimes it’s persuasive in spit of itself (and for less than laudable reasons). You should be careful hurling adjectives at complex social and economic systems, or the people who are handed the weight of responsibility for making decisions affecting those systems. Calling Barak Obama a “socialist,” and then offering a self-serving definition of socialism as fraught with evil is simply name calling of the Glenn Beck variety. Or demagoguery .

I have been as guilty of this as anyone, perhaps, in my criticism of the Bush administration. It is much easier to simply declare President Bush an “idiot,” than to start from the fairly obvious premise that he was far from the most intelligent man to hold the office and, in many ways, hired staff and made policy in line with who he was and how he perceived the world. But even that analysis isn’t really an analysis. Even the village idiot can hit upon an excellent idea. No, you have to drill down deeper and look at the actual policies implemented, the decisions made by “the decider” (sorry, can’t help myself) and the results.

The results have not been good. To those that say small government, deregulation and tax cuts are the answer, well, eight years of precisely these policies have, at a minimum, not forestalled a near financial collapse and may, indeed, have caused it. It does no good to blame. But let us at least concede that the prior party in power, in control of the White House and, for most of the time, both houses of Congress, has failed us.

I think we also must concede that the modern, industrialized economies of the world, now interdependent like never before, are incredibly complex systems. If the Heisenberg uncertainty principle teaches that quantum particles behave unpredictably, then the “soft science” we call economics really has its hands full. I don’t pretend to even begin to understand all of the forces at work behind inflationary spirals, recessions, depressions or market collapses. Anyone who believes they can encapsulate all of these divergent ideas into a sustainable theory or realistic world view in an internet thread is perhaps deluding themselves just a tad.

I would say that, for the first time in many years, I perceive that Mr. Obama is someone who grasps the gravity of the problem, knows that action is better than inaction and acknowledges–as I think we must–that government must play some roll in staving off disaster. I think he’d be the first to tell you he does not have all the answers. It’s people who believe they do that caused this dire mess. Will the stimulus plan be a smashing success? Highly doubtful. Is it perfect? Probably not even close. Is it better than further deregulation, more years of greater tax cuts and laissez faire capitalism gone awry? I’m willing to take that chance.
_________________

[Teklan]

Mandaar...

To compare a "what if" to past events pretty much lets me say this:

FDRs program to get the US out of a major depression worked. Therefore, Obama's FDR-like situation will equally result in the same thing.


Now you may call it ridiculous but its exactly what you did to socialism. The US isn't the other countries. Perhaps it WOULD work for us. It has worked for Venezuela. And they aren't even communists, they elect their leaders.

[FrogbaitSpiritwalker]

You're wrong there Tek, FDR's New Deal Program did not bring us out of the depression. It helped some, but WWII was what got us out of the depression and made us a superpower.

[Teklan]

[FrogbaitSpiritwalker]

Prove it wrong. We were still in the depression when we entered WWII , we had millions get employed by the army and those that left the country had their jobs filled by the unemployed making wartime materials.